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Well, it did not take so long for this thread which in itself was quite interesting and meaningful to degenerate to usual name calling and exchange of insults.

Voila! Nepe, a very good example of why federalism according to ethnicity will not work for Nepal. Nepalese already have hard time getting along and you want to further classify or divide them.

Nepe

At least make sure the link work before you post them, bandwidth issue makes it look how unreliable your sources are to begin with. Do I need to fill a form to enlist our ethnic group, is there a interview process involved? what proof of document do we need to present? Hahahahaha

"However, I would like to alert you that not just the government’s agency NFDIN, but also the independent organization NEFIN (Nepal Federation of Indigenous Nationalities, Chairperson: Mr. Pasang Sherpa, VC: Mr. Wangdabi Bhote) does not enlist “Manange” as a separate group."

 

That is beacuse that M00therF000ker Sherpa already got his ethnicity on the list, what does he care? If you have limited space on the list, then Sherpa should be under Bhote, not separate group. Damn...typical Nepali politics.

And Wangdabi Bhote...I really don't know who goes by Bhote as the lst name, but his "Bhote" group is on the list too. So both of this diicck suckers got their wishes, tell me what makes you think I or We can rely on them.

 

Again:

OK...after checking your website which finally started working.

 

Some key notes to watch and ponder:

 

1. Under the Himalyan Indigenous category, the "Thakali" is given 3 spots- Marphali THAKALI, THAKALI and Tin Gaule THAKALI. Why? Three different types of Thakali based on what...locations? At the same time, all the region of Mustang and Managan are put under category of Bahra Gaunle. Do you think it is fair?

 

2. Manage and Mustange do NOT speak the same language to begin with, how can you categorise them as the same group.

 

3. Another fact, the people of upper Mustang and lower Mustang have different dialect, although close, they are strikingly different. The upper Mustang are proud Dokpa and Lo people, which I did not see any mention on your website. They speak very Tibetan like dialect and the lower Mustang are similar to Sherpa in dialect. Who the hell is this Sharma who came up with these data on your site?

 

4. Sherpa are somewhat related to Mustangi. The dilect of Mustang and Sherpa are quite similar, they can understand each other pretty well, and so are the custom and the tradition. Yet Sherpa gets its own group on the list, and we are mixed up with Mustangi under a bizzare name of "12 villages". Selection based on location Vs unique ethnicity. What exactly is the rule? How irony that a Sherpa (Chairman) is on the board of the NEFIN. Credibility??? 

 

Suggestion to Nepe:

Remove the 3 different category of Thakali and put Manage on the list. Not that I want to start another war with the Thakali, it just makes more sense and fairness to the people around the region.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bad_man and Samsara,

I could see a dramatic increase in the traffic after you guy’s showdown. So, I must be grateful to you, I guess.

 

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Hurry,

As an oldie of Sajha yourself, you are well familiar what are parts of lives here. I appreciate your kind words for the thread.

 

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Bob,

Thanks man. It was a very educational piece of information for myself.

And I am really glad to hear that your point was for equal recognition of Manangi and Mustangi people and diversity within for their distinctness and not for a separate state like others folks are fighting for.

Although my message was apparently not clear enough initially, that is exactly what I was trying to advocate for. Every people of Nepal and their cultural diversity must be recognized and celebrated as national culture.

It is unfair, wrong and ill consequential to APPROXIMATE and divide the country among just 6-7 ethnicities.

Here is the Maoist scheme of dividing the country. You can see, in the Himalayan and hill area, only six unique or broad groups (Limbu, Kirat, Gurung, Tamang, Newar and Magar) are selected for giving autonomous statehood.

 

 

Decide for yourself, how unfair and unnecessary conflict-generating scheme is this. In San Francisco talk, I will be trying my best to convince people that this is a disastrous scheme.

I sure will mention about this conversation and the information you brought. Thanks once again.

And just not to confuse you, I am just a freelancer enthusiast. I am not in any committee or organizations. The best people to approach would be FIFNA folks in your town.

Federation of Indigenous Peoples of Nepal in America (FIPNA)

(President: Karma G. Sherpa, First VP: Shiva Rai)

http://www.fipna.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=29

 

Nepe

 

 

For those going to San Francisco and interested in the topic of federalism:

 

There are two more speakers, right after me, who are giving talks on federalism related issues.

Mr. Bijaya Raut and Dr. Vijaya Sharma.

Vijaya Sharma’s talk touches the matter like one raised by Bob here.

Vijaya Sharma will be weighing out two options for federalism, (a) Many small provinces to satisfy aspiring ethnicities/groups, or (b) A few larger provinces for fiscal viability.

Presentations by Bijaya Raut and Sarbeshwar Shukla will be on Madhesi issues.

 

The schedule, one again:

ANA 2009

Nepal Forum

Friday, 3 July 2009

SPEAKER	TOPIC	Time
Naveen Dutta Ratan Jha	Open NEPAL FORUM/ANTA	9.00-9.06 AM
Rudra Sharma	Review of Constitutional Development in Nepal and beyond	9.06-9.21 AM
Ashutosh Shrivastav	Unity in Diversity	9.25-9.35 AM
Dr. Deepak Khadka	To Reform or To deform: Federal Model Choices for Nepal	9.35-9.50 AM
Bijaya Raut	Madesh and Nepal	9.50-10.00 AM
	Question/Answer
Dr. Vijaya Sharma	Many Small or Few Large States: Conflict Containment or Fiscal Capacity?	10.00-10.15 AM
Break	Question/Answer	10.15-10.25 AM
Sarvendra Shukla	Madhesh – Issues and Aspiration	10.25-10.45 AM
Shashank Koirala	Role of Parties in Strengthening Democracy	10.45-11.05 AM  AM
Upendra Mahto	Nepal-  Development Issues and Challenges	11.05- 11.25 AM
Conclusion  of AM Session		11.25- 11.35 AM
Sushil Koirala	National Challenges	1.30- 1.50 PM
Interaction with Panelists	Arun Sharma/ Ratan Jha/ Vijay Sharma	1.50-2.30 PM

____________________________________________________________

Good luck Nepe jyu... I can say you know what you are talking about and you seem well versed in your upcoming presentation. My best wishes to you, bro !

nepe,

feels like your talk is polarized heavily. i don't find it very logical on your choice of going against the maoist proposed classification of nepal. while i too am strictly against maoist's demarcation agenda, i feel that you think the maoist's agenda is the only one that's going to be discussed over, or somehow only their agenda will make it to the final constitution print. no. there are several classification schemes, proposed by parties, naagarik samaaj, sociologists, educatioists, cultural and economical activists and so on. and i am quite hopeful that they all will (and must) be discussed thoroughly before letting it make into the books.

my point being, talk about the overall plan of classification, and which works the best rather than criticizing one. it will also make the other attendees feel that you are not affiliated to any parties. we've all seen the waaiyaat and uninvited political activities in ANA in the past, and need no more. moreover, i don't think it's a good idea to propose anything that's based on cast and culture. we can leave everything as it is now, just that some of the geographical divisions need to be dissolved and some created to have a uniform distribution of the resources (incl. human) so that each region gets equal share and attention later in the planning books. there was an article in himaal 2 mnths ago which had about 5-7 great articles about this classification issue..i hope you went/will go through it before delivering your speech.

Bhariyadai,

तपाईको शुभकामनाको भारी स्वीकारें । धन्यवाद बन्धु !

 

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Bhikhaari,

I take your advice very well.

My purpose is not to vilify Maoist model.

In fact, I think if we remove ethnic dimension from the model, it could be a very good starting point to do what I call a puzzle game to come up with a territorial scheme that satisfies as required the fundamental principle of new Nepal (we can compile these principles stated in various ways, but to me, it’s the following: Every citizen of Nepal is born equal; every identity and culture is dignified equal).

Theoretically, a large number of good combinations (of land and population) is possible and I am aware of several brilliant combination proposed by various scholars. We can pick any of them, recombine them if we like, and they are all good.

My purpose is not to contribute in that.

My purpose is rather to search for the initial practical basis for searching a suitable combination. These bases, as goes without saying, should be addressing all current grievances and all fears about future.

Unfortunately, that part is the least touched by most of the scholars working with the problem.

मेरो चुत्थो प्रयास त्यतातिर केही योगदान दिन सकिन्छ कि भन्ने हो ।

I have introduced some ideas (I must admit they are in very coarse form) which I think do address the genuine grievances (of past exclusion) raised by the ethnic federalists as well as the hope/wish/fear of others (inclusion of subalterns, social harmony and more priority to economy rather than to the politics of symbolism and so on).

My idea basically is more decentralization (more empowered and resourced LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ) such that the sub-centralization (REGIONAL GOVERNMENTS) become less relevant.

One logical backup for this idea comes from our own experience of the evolution and success of local governance vis-à-vis regional and central governance. I have put this idea in the following model.

 

 

 

More later.

 

Nepe

 

Bob,

You turned out to be a gold digger. I am impressed with and benefiting from your persistence and research.

Like I said, there is a general consensus among the scholars and politicians that the study on the diversity of our people is incomplete. NEFIN folks acknowledge that too. The information you brought here just gives a face to that agreement.

I sure will add ‘Managi’ in my list and share this anecdote with my audience.

As I said, my major argument is that the founding principle of our nation-state should be that there shall be no discrimination of any kind to any nationalit irrespective of their size, distribution and mobility.

Your outrage and the information you brought here make that point more strongly than I could have made without.

Nepe

Yasto maobaadi ko talk "Brainwashing comment" sunna jaane ta sabai murkha nai hunn. Period. If anyone of you think your time is precious, yasta maobaadi ko talk nasune hunchha. Bhir bata ladna lako goru lai ram ram bhanna sakinchha kaandh thapna ta sakinna, so maile pani sabailai ek choti sachet gardeko matra ho. Rest, your choice.

As much as I wanted to stay out of putting in even a single comment into this ignorant thread anymore, finally this pompus fool aka Nepe, acknowledges that the Manangis can indeed be a part of the NEFIN list.  Pseudo scholars who formed the list probably never once realized that there would be an outrage amongst the educated Manangi and Mustangi folks who would definitely be surprised in seeing other minorities make the list but themselves (and who created these lists classifying minorities?? Some damn Koiralas, Sharma, Sherpa, Wangdabi Bhote (WTF), etc....Talk about equal representation!!  AND do these outsiders even know anything about us at all?  I doubt it since our community is real closely knit together hardly allowing any outsiders to access the inside). 

Bob's below words surely hit the nail on the head in regards to adding the Manangis on the list of indigenous peeps and giving it the distinct recognition the group truly deserves: 

Suggestion to Nepe:

Remove the 3 different category of Thakali and put Manage on the list. Not that I want to start another war with the Thakali, it just makes more sense and fairness to the people around the region.

Exactly what the Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis learned by undergoing through it under the British, we will learn it in a few years down the road if we take that Federalism route, that is based on dividing land for different ethnic groups, and that lesson will be "divide and conquer". But for us, it will be too late for us as a disintegrated nation at that point to apply the lesson on anything good.
Instead of this kind of fruitless Federalism talk, we need a forum on how to restore the law and order in our country and how we as common people can erect a government power that can address the mandate of the common people. The better option is to maintain the existing heterogeneous society with people of different races, religion, professions coexisting in geographically diverse terrains containing diverse natural resources vital for the well-functioning of Nepal.
As far as administrative division goes, we do not need to re-invent the wheel. We can creatively and objectively debate with acceptable reasons on whether to continue to have 14 zones and 75 districts with or without five developmental regions. But the governing structure could be streamlined to remove redundancy and make it more effective, efficient, streamlined and yes decantralized. During the debate all different people with different background could have different inputs but the bottom line should be that we are all united by the common feeling of each of us bearing the identity of a Nepali.

That's more than two cents right there.

After advocating federalism for long time i am giving up on the idea. Given the great appetite of destruction we Nepalese have, the concept of federalism just doesn't seem to work be it ethnic based federalism and geography based federalism.

Lets work on decentralization of power and resources and work on creating an environment of equal justice, opportunity, and respect for people of all races, religions, professions and so on.

Sid

Just like when it came to hang the bell on the cat, him and his republic movement mice are again going to hide his tail and run like he did last time and leave our Nepali Bhedas as sacrificial lambs for the Maoists.

“Just like when it came to hang the bell on the cat, him and his republic movement mice are again going to hide his tail and run like he did last time and leave our Nepali Bhedas as sacrificial lambs for the Maoists.”

 

No matter how he put, what Bathroom said about the republicans leaving the space and the fate of the country at the mercy of Maoist experiments and adventures is a painful truth.

Seeing how the ethnic fundamentalism managed to invade our national consciousness and how Maoists are making R-, L- and U-turn from their initial commitment to a democratic polity, I am starting to question whether fighting for republicanism was worth. Straight from my heart.

However, I still think next 1 or 2 years (one year that is left for bringing out a new constitution and one more year for judging if it could satisfy all, as we have been expecting/claiming ) should get a chance to prove itself before I remorse for my faith and whatever little I contributed for republicanism.

So, Bathroom, give me two more years before I come to you and say, ‘You were right, I was wrong. I remorse for my blunder’.

Meanwhile, let me do this small work of fighting against ethnic division of Nepal, which, as you expressed in another thread, you are against too.

Opposing ethnic division of Nepal is a rare same page you and I are together on. Let’s focus on this. Republicanism and republicans ko kura gardai garaula.

 

Nepe  

mR. hydE and sidster,

You are right about the redundancy and the potential danger of federalism.

However, the decision has been already made (the decision of the interim parliament in 2007, the government-Madhesi groups agreement in 2007 to create a “Madhesi autonomous province”, the Constituent Assembly’s first session’s declaration of a ‘federal republic of Nepal’, to name the few major decisions).

So, saying no to federalism is neither enough nor will work.

Chitra Bahadur KC and his party is like eklo brihaspati in opposing federalism.

So, my point is that, only realistic and practical thing left is to MINIMIZE the potential damage by federalism. So the best thing to do right now is to search and advocate for the LEAST HARMFUL model of federalism.

Mero prayas ra jod teta pati ho. I hope you are not dismissing this kind of thinking.

 

Nepe

Nepe,

Thanks for the acknowledgment, you are right we need to make the best out of what we have in our hand.  I wish you a good luck with your presentation

Sid